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cypherpink Mediator Donor - Resistor Top Seller
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Aug 19 09:17
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#1921
XMR bond for sellers is a neat idea, yet it's really unpopular on the bazaar — nearly no one uses it. I see a few key reasons for that:

- bond is taxed. this is nonsense — no other marketplace/forum with a bond function makes you pay regularly for a cold-stored bond. if you forget to renew or withdraw your bond after 6 months, you forfeit your full bond.
- if you lose a dispute, you lose whole bond. this makes it a high risk to use bond overall, since there may be accidental mistakes. also, this opens a window for targeted scam schemes.
- worth also noting, that the bond only covers you, if you are being paid XMR, not vice versa.

what do you think?
Edited: Aug 20 17:44
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SoulReaver Donor - Resistor Mediator Top Seller
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Aug 19 09:43
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#1922
Reply to post #1921
The "forfeit your full bond" rule for missing a renewal is basically a built-in confiscation tax. Forget to renew or withdraw in time and you lose the entire bond. That's basically a gacha mechanic around an administrative deadline.

If you lose even a tiny dispute, the bond holder gets the remainder of your entire bond. Lose a 1 XMR dispute with a 10 XMR bond and they get the other 9 XMR too. That's another gacha-like loss mechanic, where a relatively small event can wipe out a disproportionate amount of capital.

The whole thing is riddled w/ traps of you losing bond amount in unfair grounds and amounts.

If they want to monetize it, why not make the fees event-based instead? Take a small cut from the seller when a bond is actually forfeited, or a cut from the buyer if they cry wolf, and a fee when a dispute is successfully resolved, rather than charging sellers just to keep the bond alive and creating these huge cliff-edge penalties.

Provided we're interpreting the bond text correctly, I think the biggest adoption hurdle is that it's riddled with poor design elements for the seller. The bond mediator not being actively compensated is another unfairness issue.
Edited: Aug 30 03:04
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AilliA Admin Mediator Top Seller
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Aug 20 03:22
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#1929
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback: it’s genuinely appreciated and hopefully helps us improve :)

You’re right that parts of the bonds guide https://anonbazaar.com/bonds-guide need clearer wording and some refinement: e.g. the current description of what happens if a bond is neither renewed nor withdrawn after the (typically 6-month) period can read more harshly than intended; that will be revised.

To clarify a couple of points:

- The periodic fee is not designed as a tax. It is a simple once-per-period bond-maintenance fee (similar in spirit to a mediator fee): e.g. the bond mediator still receives their normal mediation fee on any bonded order, it is simply paid by the bondholder rather than by the traders.

- Regarding full-bond forfeiture after a lost dispute: the existing phrasing is unfortunately ambiguous. The intention has always been to apply it ONLY in clear cases of obvious scam attempts, not ordinary trade problems (lost packages, shipping delays, honest mistakes, etc.). A user’s overall reputation and track record are ALWAYS taken into account.
We will update the guide to draw a clear distinction between deliberate abuse and normal trade failures.

We’d love to hear any concrete rephrasing suggestions you (or anyone else) have so the bond system feels fairer and more attractive to users. Open to constructive ideas that keep the protective value for buyers while removing unnecessary risks for honest traders.

Thanks again for raising this cypherpink: constructive criticism like yours makes the marketplace better for everyone :)
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SoulReaver Donor - Resistor Mediator Top Seller
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Aug 20 08:06
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#1936
Reply to post #1929
Just to caveat this before the draft: I am not a legal practitioner, so this is not intended as legal advice or as a claim that the wording is legally bulletproof in any formal sense. This is my best understanding of how the system works based on what I've read in the guide, the discussion here, and your clarification.

Apologies in advance if I've misunderstood any part of the actual mechanics or intended policy. You know the underlying system and its implementation better than I do, so I'd suggest treating the following as a proposed wording exercise rather than something to apply verbatim. I'd recommend thinking through the draft against the actual mechanisms before making any changes, and adjusting or removing anything that doesn't accurately reflect how the system actually operates.

The main thing I'm trying to do with the wording below is make the logical relationships explicit: define the triggering conditions, the resulting consequence, and the conditions under which that consequence does not apply, rather than leaving those relationships implicit in a single procedural sentence.

The degree of "legalisemaxxing" can obviously be adjusted depending on the preferred balance between natural-sounding language and minimizing ambiguity. The more defensive version will inevitably be somewhat stiff and redundant in places, but that's partly intentional. The idea is to fortify the same intended meaning through explicit conditions, exclusions, decision authority, and separately stated consequences, so that the interpretation doesn't depend on inference. Legal drafting techniques are useful here because they have evolved around adversarial interpretation: rather than assuming a reader will infer the intended relationship between clauses, they try to make the conditions and consequences explicit enough that the text remains robust even when examined by someone actively looking for an alternative interpretation.

Minimum clarifications

Disputes:

If the buyer wins the dispute on fair grounds, the mediator alerts the bond holder, who refunds the buyer using the bonded funds. If the bonded amount is less than the order amount, the buyer receives a partial refund. If the bonded amount is greater than or equal to the order amount, the buyer receives a full refund.

If no misconduct or deliberate abuse of the bond system is detected, any bonded funds remaining after the refund are unaffected and remain part of the bond.

The mediator has sole discretion to determine whether misconduct or deliberate abuse of the bond system occurred. In making this determination, the mediator may consider the circumstances and evidence of the dispute, the conduct of the parties, and the bond holder's reputation and trading history. A buyer winning a dispute on fair grounds, without any detected misconduct or deliberate abuse, does not by itself constitute grounds for forfeiture of the remaining bonded funds.

If the mediator determines that the dispute involved deliberate abuse of the bond system, such as an obvious scam attempt or other serious misconduct, any remaining bonded funds may be forfeited to the bond holder.

Fees:

There are only two fees associated with bond insurance that are paid by the seller: the deposit fee and the renewal fee.

There are no additional listing fees, order fees, or mediation fees charged to the traders in connection with a bonded order.

The bond mediator still receives the normal mediation fee applicable to a bonded order. This mediation fee is paid by the bond holder and is not charged to the buyer or seller as an additional fee.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More comprehensive / legal-style version

The following is essentially the same clarification, but structured more defensively so that the conditions and consequences are explicit and difficult to interpret independently of one another. This is the version I'd consider if the priority is minimizing ambiguity rather than keeping the guide as concise and natural-sounding as possible.

Bond Insurance

Bond insurance allows a seller to deposit funds as a bond that can be used to cover refunds arising from disputes involving the seller's orders.

The bond holder is the seller who deposited the bond. The bonded funds are the funds deposited as the bond and are separate from the seller's ordinary account balance.

Disputes and Refunds

If the buyer wins the dispute on fair grounds, the mediator alerts the bond holder, who refunds the buyer using the bonded funds. If the bonded amount is less than the order amount, the buyer receives a partial refund. If the bonded amount is greater than or equal to the order amount, the buyer receives a full refund.

If no misconduct or deliberate abuse of the bond system is detected, any bonded funds remaining after the refund are unaffected and remain part of the bond.

The bond mediator has sole discretion to determine whether misconduct or deliberate abuse of the bond system occurred. This determination is made based on the circumstances and available evidence of the dispute, including the conduct of the parties and, where relevant, the bond holder's reputation and trading history.

A buyer winning a dispute on fair grounds, without any detected misconduct or deliberate abuse, does not by itself constitute grounds for forfeiture of the remaining bonded funds.

If the mediator determines that the dispute involved deliberate abuse of the bond system, such as an obvious scam attempt or other serious misconduct, any remaining bonded funds may be forfeited to the bond holder.

For the avoidance of doubt, a refund and a forfeiture are separate consequences. A refund uses the bonded funds to compensate the buyer. Forfeiture is a separate consequence that applies only when the applicable conditions for forfeiture have been met.

Bond Expiration and Renewal

Each bond has an expiry date and a renewal period.

The seller may renew or withdraw the bond during the renewal period, subject to the applicable terms.

If the seller does not renew or withdraw the bond before the renewal period ends, the bonded funds are forfeited to the bond holder. This forfeiture occurs because the bond was not renewed or withdrawn before expiration and is separate from any forfeiture resulting from a dispute.

Fees

There are only two fees associated with bond insurance that are paid by the seller: the deposit fee and the renewal fee.

There are no additional listing fees, order fees, or mediation fees charged to the traders in connection with a bonded order.

The bond mediator still receives the normal mediation fee applicable to a bonded order. This mediation fee is paid by the bond holder and is not charged to the buyer or seller as an additional fee.

Interpretation

Where this guide specifies a condition for a refund, forfeiture, fee, renewal, withdrawal, or other consequence, that consequence applies only under the conditions expressly stated for it.

The occurrence of one event described in this guide does not, by itself, create an additional consequence unless that consequence is expressly provided for by the applicable provision.
Edited: Aug 21 11:55
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cypherpink Mediator Donor - Resistor Top Seller
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Aug 20 17:43
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#1942
Reply to post #1929
now, i must confess i've used the word tax here just to sound convincing. whatever it actually is, a regural fee for money that is lying cold is both wrong & de facto unattractive. mediator does not get a regural monthly fee subscribtion for a deal they made once — they get paid once on the spot. in the same sense, a one-time deposit/withdrawal fee (or even both) would be fair for a bond.

edited the OP-post about the full bond lose.
Edited: Aug 20 17:44
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AilliA Admin Mediator Top Seller
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Aug 20 19:52
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#1943
Reply to post #1942
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “money that is lying cold”: every bonded order carries the risk of potential complications / scam attempts / time-consuming investigations for the mediator, exactly as it does with a regular multisig escrow. That’s why I charge per order.

Having been a private bond holder myself (outside of bazaar, where the bond holder usually also acts as the mediator; and tbh the separate-roles setup we have here is quite rare), I can confirm these arrangements are always for a limited period and can be renewed (or not), BUT it's never like you’re paid once and then left on the hook indefinitely)))
You could therefore think of a “renewal fee” as the exact same idea as the deposit/withdrawal fee you mentioned… only we skip the actual withdrawing-and-re-depositing choreography: after an agreed period the bond simply ends, and a new one can be opened if both sides still fancy continuing (or not) - same concept just without withdrawing-and-re-depositing extra steps...
Edited: Aug 20 20:04
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RockNo99 Donor - Supporter
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Aug 21 11:35
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#1946
Maybe make the bond more affordable...
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We_are_all_burning Donor - Resistor Top Seller
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Sep 1 04:59
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#1996
Reply to post #1922
Even making a reply and quoting someone else's is frustrating, not to mention that in the context of buying/selling XMR, "buyer" and "seller" are used so unintuitively that it makes me wonder why things are so complicated here when it does not have to be that way.

I don't know who wrote the text on AnonBazaar, but it needs extensive improvements. And hey, I'll offer myself up for hire. I can write policies concisely and which the majority of readers would be able to comprehend in a simple plain language reading. What exists now is a Fay Boy's payload, dropped and exploded and leaving the site's landscape looking like something a normal person would pivot on their heels and flee from.

By the way, the use of the underscore symbol in usernames should be reviewed. I think the admin and mods know why, and it isn't careless reading on the part of scam victims.
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